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Argument On Tibet Issue

panpanpan 就此问题的看法： I firmly believe delusional fear and desperate jealousy deep-seated in the western mind are behind all this ridiculous farce. But the good thing is, this teaches our young generation a very good lesson which may not be learnt otherwise, that how fake and hypocritical their "freedom of speech" and their "pursuit for human rights" can be, and how ignorant and stupid the western world can be. For some time this "freedom and democracy" peddled by the western world sounded so glamorous and bewitching that so many innocent people in this country were so much buying into it and looking forward to following suit. Now they are given a rude awakening. By this dirty trick played by the freedom democracy-holders. How ironic! Now they are facing the last thing they ever wanted: A stronger-ever China with its ever more united people. Having a memory like an elephant, and peace-loving deep in their very bones, this enduring people never forgets who's their real friend and who had been rooting, raping, burning and killing on their beloved land. Aren't they the same ugly old pirates who had once so brutally devastated the initially beautiful YuanMingYuan Garden? But they might have another think coming if they ever expect China to be the country they so naively wish to be.
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他的文章立即招致 Mary 的强烈反应：I wish you wouldn't include everybody in "the West" in your statements about "The Western Mind". It definitely does not include Canada...I agree with Jeannie's last paragraph in which she says that any fair person can see the incredibly quick development and the peace among 1.3 billion people. If more people knew you they would love you...Propaganda is all coming from somewhere for some reason. The best thing to do is to tell western media the information that Jeannie has provided.

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Tim 继续回应：

I would certainly agree that the big corporate media giants like CNN and others are producing a huge amount of misleading propaganda about China. I also feel that it is very unfortunate and very unfair that some Tibetans and their allies are using the Olympic Games to attack China, but in no way am I at all surprised by these developments.

I have been very, very fortunate to have visited your wonderful country on two occasions and most recently visited Tibet. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but my strong impression in talking to quite a few Tibetans, is that a large percentage of the population of native Tibetans feel that their land is being occupied by the Chinese government. Perhaps a case can be made that there are long historical ties between Tibet and China, but whether or not one believes that Tibet is a historical part of China, what really matters is what the Tibetans believe. This is because history has shown many times that if even a few percent of a population is willing to fight and die to remove what they consider to be an occupying force from their country, those people can make the lives of the occupiers hell for generations and completely eliminate any advantage of trying to maintain control over that land.

In saying the above, I realize that I am not speaking from any moral high ground as an American. The very land I live on was taken first from the Native Americans by Mexico and then taken from Mexico by Americans. And on this very day people are fighting and dying in Iraq because Iraqis believe (and for good reason) that the US is occupying their land. As long as the Iraqis believe this and Americans are around to kill, Iraqis will try to kill them. I can tell you with certainty that many Tibetans believe that their country, with or without a feudal past, is being occupied by foreign Chinese. And the attitudes of the Han Chinese in Tibet often serve to fuel the hatred Tibetans feel. Many of the Han display a palpable sense of superiority and arrogance such that it becomes very easy to feel great sympathy for the Tibetans as they seem to become servants in their own country. As I was leaving Tibet, waiting in the check-in queue, while I wasn't looking a group of Han walked right past me and cut the queue. When I vociferously complained, a wild eyed young man challenged me screaming "This China! This China!" Whether or not you care to understand what I am telling you, I have to state that China is to a large degree suffering from the accumulated bad karma from an occupation of a land where they are not wanted by a large percentage of the population. That is a problem that China will be dealing with in the next and the next generation, unless the Tibetans are given meaningful autonomy. I think you know how much I love China, but the truth, even when difficult, is the truth. China can choose to change her policy toward Tibet or spend generations and a huge amount of resources to control and fight Tibetans in their own country.

Tim

panpanpan 的答复:

Dear Tim,

Sorry to say your comments on Tibet being a "country occupied by Han people" are completely and totally unacceptable. And your comparison about China/Tibet relationship and that of US/Iraq is the worst. I hope you did not come to that conclusion based on the unfair way your were treated at the check in counter. Rude people are everywhere, just as many there are in China as there are in America.

There're lots of video clips on Youtube that would prove you how Tibet was is and will forever be an integral part of this only China. Much as I hate to say, I think your interviews with a few locals doesn't change the fact. I am no historian, but I tend to believe how madly happy America will be (out of its pathological fear of a stronger China) if China fail to hold on to its integrity and come apart at the seams. Heaven forbid. I realize what a negative influence you can be among your American fellows since now you take yourself as someone "who has been there". How many Tibetans have you interviewed with and who were they? Can they really reflect the REAL voice of Tibetan people? Have you ever gone down to grassroots level to meet more common people who used to be the slave class under Dalai's regime? And how long have you stayed in Tibet, or more precisely, in Lhasa? Think about it, my friend. And think about who has been behind all this Tibet riot, who has been paying Dalai for what he is doing and for whose benefit?

Would you deny Taiwan being a part of China? And Xinjiang? Would you deny Japan's invasion of my country?

I will do my part to protect the dignity of my country. I wouldn't count myself as a blind nationalist, but I have never felt more tangible this obligation is to protect our name from malicious smearing.

Sorry to have disagreed,

Sincerely, Pan.

我的 Reply:

Dear Tim,

I do not accept your comments on Tibet being a "country occupied by Han people" either. Lots of official documents have shown that Tibet has long been part of Chinese territory since Yuan Dynasty (1270–1368 A.D.). I don't know whether you visited the museum when you were in Lhasa.

It was the Qing Dynasty (1644–1911 A.D.) that established the system of conferring honorific titles on the two Living Buddhas - Dalai and Bainqen lamas by the Central [屏蔽]. In 1653 and 1713, the Qing emperors granted honorific titles and political/religious status to the 5th Dalai Lama and the 5th Bainqen Lama. Since then the convention has been continued down to the present day. The existing 14th Dalai Lama himself was also conferred by the then Kuomintang government in 1946 when the death of the 13th Dalai Lama was reported by the Tibetan local government in the traditional manner. The simple reality that the installation of the 14th Dalai Lama needed the approval of the national government is sufficient proof that Tibet did not possess any independent power during that period.

It might be more understandable if China tells the world that before 1959 Tibet had long been a society under a system of Feudal Serfdom which intertwined politics with religion, a society which was even darker and crueler than the European Medieval Ages. Old Tibet was certainly a paradise of the slave-owners, not the majority of serfs. That is why Dalai Lama and his followers have been so desperately tried to hide the facts, lie to the world and glorify the old Tibet. And imperialists know exactly what they have done behind all those incidents.

Chinese people, who had suffered century-long imperialist aggression and humiliation, have enjoyed and cherished the hard-won peaceful period in the past 60 years. We need both a stable domestic political situation and a peaceful international environment for achieving further progresses. Also a prosperous China will make even greater contributions to world peace and humankind. We shall never allow anyone to destroy our country by splitting Tibet/Taiwan from the mainland in any means.

Jeannie

Tim's Reply:

Dear Pan, Jeannie and Jenny,

I understand that this is a matter of great interest and emotion and I don't intend to offend you. But David has exactly the correct interpretation of my remarks. I never actually said that Tibet was a "country occupied by Han people". I said that many Tibetans believe that is the case, and that is the basis of the problem. We can argue history and Tibetan culture and many other matters for days and weeks, but what really matters is what the Tibetan people believe. As David pointed out, when people feel they are being occupied they will fight any way they can. I believe that most of the Chinese administrators and the Tibetans that work with them are working for the best interests of the Tibetan people, but if many Tibetans, not even most, feel that the Chinese are occupiers, there will be violence and conflict over a long period of time. The Chinese government must come up with a way to convince the Tibetans that they want what is in their best interests, according to the Tibetan concepts of their own happiness. Please understand that I am actually writing what I am writing because I believe a change will help China. I very much hope for a peaceful settlement of all disputes related to Tibet and a happy and successful Olympic games. But with hardening hearts on all sides, it is hard to see how this will happen.

Still trying to...

Work for peace. Tim

我的 Reply:

Things would be much easier if there would have no black hands behind all conflicts. Throughout the history, behind every violence and conflict in the world there have black hands, or rather, different interest groups. Look, Kashmir conflict between India and Pakistan; Middle East conflicts between Israel and Palestine; Iraqi War; former Yugoslavian War; Kosovo...

By the way, I forgot mentioning in my post that China is a multi-national country with 56 nationalities. The King of Tubo Songtsen Gampo (617-650 A.D.) had married a princess of Tang Dynasty, and the Potala Palace was especially built for the princess. See, Tibetans had Han blood 1300 years ago. Also, our nation had been governed by several national minorities for centuries. For example, Yuan Dynasty (Mongol), Qing Dynasty (Manchu)...

Jeannie

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Tim's Reply:

Dear Jeannie,

Here is another way to consider the Tibetan situation from a broader perspective. We Americans can point to hundreds of years of very close cultural ties between ourselves and Canadians, and thousands of years of ties between Native Americans and native Canadians. Intermarriages have gone on from the beginning and we even share a common language. Even our accents are similar. The governor of Michigan was born in Canada. But if the US army came marching into Ottawa with tanks and troops carrying banners saying "Canadian / American Brotherhood" and took over the Canadian government, we Americans would surely be dealing with Canadian snipers hiding in the woods for a very long time. And even if we tried hard to build up the Canadian economy and employ Canadians, if millions of Americans came streaming across the border as managers with high salaries, owning most of the economy, this would make a very bad problem much worse.

Now of course many differences between my imaginary situation and the Tibetan/Chinese situation exist, but what is the same is that the Peoples Army marched into Lhasa and thereby created generations of Tibetan nationalists willing to die for an independent Tibet. That is one of the problems with the use of military force and it is a hard problem that lasts a long time. I don't claim to have the answers, but the problem in the final analysis is nationalism. I am not a nationalist and both the Chinese and the Tibetans have my sympathy for the many years of unhappiness, pain and death that the nationalism on both sides has created.

Tim

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我的 Reply:

Dear Tim,

It is a matter of ideological confrontation. Some western countries cannot abide the existing of a socialism China which is different in ideology and social systems from those of western countries. Moreover, this poor weak war-torn country has been growing stronger under the leadership of a communist party. I think that such is the case throughout the world in recent decades. Socialism countries have experienced great pressure politically and economically from western countries ever since they established. Say, Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea, former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia… The US is clearer than anyone else in the world what the exact causes of the Korean and Vietnamese wars were. I am not saying that governments of western countries are trying to overthrow the socialist system in China, but at least some westerners are trying to. They have a strategy direct against China while Tibet issue is just a suitable trump card in their hands. I never believe that western countries will really care about the welfare of the Tibetan people. They simply make the best use of Tibet issue to impose pressure on the Chinese government. Otherwise, why there had been no objections on the international community that Tibet is a part of Chinese territory before the New China establishment in 1949?

Dalai Lama knows how to please western countries - his financial supporters and masters. He talks gloriously most often about human rights, peace, environment, culture … But why is he reticent about his past, about the dark cruel old Tibet under his leadership some 60 years ago?

I am sure that Canadian people would be exasperated if any back-seat drivers telling them what to do on Quebec issue. For the very same reason, I hope Tibet issue will be left to the Chinese people to solve. We know much better than anyone else in the world about Tibetan history and realities. Boycotted or not China shall continuously push ahead steadily on its way for development.

Jeannie

Tim's Reply:

Dear Jeannie,

I would not deny that fear and to some extent, jealousy of China's great success as a socialist country has something to do with the international "pile on" that China is experiencing over the Tibetan issue. I have experienced that myself when talking to Americans - they simply cannot understand or accept that socialism can be converted into an efficient economic system, even though the evidence of the incredible success of China is everywhere to be seen. You know that I am a great supporter of China's economic miracle, so that is not my issue here.

Nevertheless, the initiation of the current troubles came with the rioting of native Tibetans who very strongly dislike the Chinese controlling their country by military force. You may cite the Chinese version of history for 24 hours if you wish, but I think we both realize that there have been very significant elements inside Tibet supporting independence for hundreds of years, finally requiring the use of overwhelming military force by China in 1950 and at various times since then. It is that use of military force that creates the sense of occupation among the Tibetans that China will have to deal with. More force will create

more ill will among the Tibetans, leading to more suppression and more condemnation by the world. I think it should be clear that China must try very hard to find a peaceful approach to this problem. I am very glad this is not my problem to solve. For the sake of both sides, I hope that a peaceful solution is found that recognizes human dignity. Seeking peace is surely hard work.

Tim

Posted: 2008-04-23 22:45 | [楼主]

5come5帮你背单词 [ spain /spein/ n. 西班牙 ] Argument On Tibet Issue

5come5帮你背单词 [ spain /spein/ n. 西班牙 ]

Argument On Tibet Issue